[andrewm921]

So, my first bike was carbureted, and from what I remember, if I was very careful, I could avoid any meaningful surge when applying throttle.

However, it seems that with the ninja 300, because it is fuel injected, there is an unavoidable surge, once it gets enough throttle to actually react.

My question is: am I operating my throttle like an idiot after only 100 miles on this bike and not having ridden for 3 years, or is this really something that can't be changed with the stock FI system?

If it's the first, I'll work it out. If it's the second, what ways are there to remedy this issue?

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Spacep0d]

The Ninja 300 in my view is pretty good with fueling. I think it's option 1.

Also, please fill in your location details in your user control panel. That helps us help you when there are questions where knowing your general-location is helpful.

Thanks, and welcome to the forum.

 

[andrewm921]

Spacep0d, to a degree, you're certainly right. I spent a few hours working on various things today -- one of which was throttle control. (I updated my location -- thanks.)

Maybe you're 100% correct, and I haven't ridden FI bikes enough, but in first and second gear, (and third, but not to the same degree) it seems that unless I let off the throttle *extremely* slowly -- like, if you looked at my grip you may not be able to tell that its moving -- at a certain point when I'm either opening or closing the throttle, there's a bit of a jerk/dive. It's only right at the start of the grip's rotation (so, going from 0 throttle to some, or from some to 0).

Do you just deal with this by moving the throttle extremely slowly at that point?

 

[jeff]

Spacep0d, to a degree, you're certainly right. I spent a few hours working on various things today -- one of which was throttle control. (I updated my location -- thanks.)

Maybe you're 100% correct, and I haven't ridden FI bikes enough, but in first and second gear, (and third, but not to the same degree) it seems that unless I let off the throttle *extremely* slowly -- like, if you looked at my grip you may not be able to tell that its moving -- at a certain point when I'm either opening or closing the throttle, there's a bit of a jerk/dive. It's only right at the start of the grip's rotation (so, going from 0 throttle to some, or from some to 0).

Do you just deal with this by moving the throttle extremely slowly at that point?

The severity of the engine braking with this engine is quite heavy......but you will get used to this. I find I simply back off quickly without trying to roll off the throttle........or roll off the throttle very very slowly. I dont think there is a happy medium in this regard, its just a really severe engine brake. The ECU flash tune that Spacep0d has had done can reduce the severity of the engine braking also.

I believe it primarily has to do with the DFCO (Deceleration Fuel Cut Off) that is active with these motors. What this essentially does is cuts fuel to the cylinders to save fuel when under deceleration, and the compression/vacuum of the motor is what keeps it running until the engine is under no more vacuum/load from the deceleration.........such as at idle or when the throttle is activated again. This engine braking was reduced a little with the application of the recall with the ECU's (which the DFCO was part of the reason for the stalling....too much fuel being cut too quickly) but still is quite evident.

 

[andrewm921]

Ah, okay, thanks, Jeff. Yeah, that makes sense. It really feels like *just* at the point where the grip starts pulling at the throttle cable, there's a switch. Very disconcerting trying to do drills (like those in Total Control), when just starting out (so, going slowly in first/second), being in mid-circle, and having the power cut out because i rolled off the throttle. *almost* dropped it once -- moved to 2nd and 3rd gears after that one.

I'll have to look into getting the ECU flash.

This may be a stupid question, but, would the ECU flash void the warranty?

 

[Carloso]

That particular characteristic of this bike can be annoying, especially during heavy traffic where there is a lot of stop and go. The way I see it is you only have two choices:

A. Release the throttle very slowly
B. Coast using the clutch

The advantage of using the clutch at low speeds is that you can slowly release it to smoothly slow the bike down using engine breaking or slowly release it when accelerating, again for smoothness.

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[my evil twin]

I have made it a habit to coast with the clutch disengaged whenever I'm not accelerating or maintaining a steady speed. When you ride this way, the deceleration surge just isn't a problem, plus you tend to get better fuel economy and rear tire life.

 

[xtina]

Tighten the throttle cables so there is no play in the throttle. ie no jiggle. That will remedy some of the jerkiness.

 

[andrewm921]

Carloso and my evil twin, the issue is making subtle changes while turning / in a lean. In that situation, you really don't want the clutch out, and you really really don't want the bike jerking.

xtina, I actually did that earlier today, and it noticeably helped -- but I'd like to get it smoother.

 

[xtina]

Carloso and my evil twin, the issue is making subtle changes while turning / in a lean. In that situation, you really don't want the clutch out, and you really really don't want the bike jerking.

xtina, I actually did that earlier today, and it noticeably helped -- but I'd like to get it smoother.

Use the friction zone for slow maneuvers. That is the clutch pulled part in where it just engages and foot on the rear brake. Barring that you just have to get use to the throttle and learn to control it better.

 

[Carloso]

Carloso and my evil twin, the issue is making subtle changes while turning / in a lean. In that situation, you really don't want the clutch out, and you really really don't want the bike jerking.

xtina, I actually did that earlier today, and it noticeably helped -- but I'd like to get it smoother.

In a turning scenario your bike shouldn't be jerking because you shouldn't be cutting the throttle off. You should be setting up the turn and entry speed before making the turn and then accelerating throughout the turn.

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[xtina]

In a turning scenario your bike shouldn't be jerking because you shouldn't be cutting the throttle off. You should be setting up the turn and entry speed before making the turn and then accelerating throughout the turn.

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this is true for faster turns. And I've mashed my throttle going through turns and it's quite forgiving on this bike.

 

[jeff]

Using clutch friction zone for slow manouvres is the way I was taught also, you have much more control over the bike. Use the clutch to vary your speed at low speeds. I quite often back off and on the throttle during corners too.......sometimes you cant help it with traffic slowing and changes in road conditions such as shit on the road etc. For high speed turns as xtina mentioned, definitely choose your entry speed first and maintain as you dont want to come away from your line.

Please dont ride with the clutch held in as mentioned except for changing gears and/or slow speed manouvres.....is a very dangerous way to ride and you have much less control over your bike. Plus it doesnt save any fuel at all, as your engine is idling (using fuel) compared to running under vacuum and utilising the DFCO which is what happens when you just back off the throttle and are using engine braking. Plus you save on brakes when utilising engine braking. The friction when releasing the clutch if just coasting is quite more severe especially if you dont match your engine spped to the road speed before releasing........i.e blipping the throttle to match.

 

[milez1987]

Leaving the bike with the throttle slightly open and controlling the speed via rear brake eliminates herky jerky throttle opening and closing. Just pull the clutch in when you actually need to stop.

 

[my evil twin]

Plus it doesnt save any fuel at all, as your engine is idling (using fuel) compared to running under vacuum and utilising the DFCO which is what happens when you just back off the throttle and are using engine braking. .

Strange then that I am about the only N300 owner on this forum who routinely gets 75 mpg, tank after tank after tank, not just once in a row. My once in a row gas mileage is 79.

In DFCO, you aren't immediately burning fuel, but the energy you lose from the engine braking has to be replaced. When freewheeling to a stop, you can shut off the power sooner and still coast to the red light. If you allow the bike to freewheel down a hill, you get better mpg going up the next hill because you are entering the climb with more speed than the person who held the bike's speed low with engine braking.

Here's an example. Lets say you are cruising along at 55 mph getting about 65 mpg and here comes a big canyon with a straight downhill and straight uphill climb, no curves that demand slowing down.
You shut off the throttle on the downhill and get infinite gas mileage going downhill and at the bottom you have slowed down to 50 mph due to engine braking and because you enter the climb with only 50 mph speed, you only manage 30 mpg during the climb. Infinite gas mileage and 30 mpg averages to 60 mpg.
Now you hold in the clutch and let the engine idle and because there is no engine braking, the bike stays going 55 or maybe even speeds up to 60 mph. Because you enter the climb with the extra speed, you get 40 mpg during that climb. The engine burning .125 gallons per hour idling while coasting at 55 mph means you are getting 440 mpg on the downhill instead of infinite gas mileage on the downhill.
40 mpg and 440 mpg averages to 73.33 mpg.

That .125 gallons per hour idling is kind of a guess based on what car engines burn idling. It may actually burn less. A 1.5 liter Toyota engine used in the Yaris burns about .18 gallons per hour. Most automobile four cylinder engines use about .25 gallons per hour.

 

[jeff]

Strange then that I am about the only N300 owner on this forum who routinely gets 75 mpg, tank after tank after tank, not just once in a row. My once in a row gas mileage is 79.

In DFCO, you aren't immediately burning fuel, but the energy you lose from the engine braking has to be replaced. When freewheeling to a stop, you can shut off the power sooner and still coast to the red light. If you allow the bike to freewheel down a hill, you get better mpg going up the next hill because you are entering the climb with more speed than the person who held the bike's speed low with engine braking.

Here's an example. Lets say you are cruising along at 55 mph getting about 65 mpg and here comes a big canyon with a straight downhill and straight uphill climb, no curves that demand slowing down.
You shut off the throttle on the downhill and get infinite gas mileage going downhill and at the bottom you have slowed down to 50 mph due to engine braking and because you enter the climb with only 50 mph speed, you only manage 30 mpg during the climb. Infinite gas mileage and 30 mpg averages to 60 mpg.
Now you hold in the clutch and let the engine idle and because there is no engine braking, the bike stays going 55 or maybe even speeds up to 60 mph. Because you enter the climb with the extra speed, you get 40 mpg during that climb. The engine burning .125 gallons per hour idling while coasting at 55 mph means you are getting 440 mpg on the downhill instead of infinite gas mileage on the downhill.
40 mpg and 440 mpg averages to 73.33 mpg.

That .125 gallons per hour idling is kind of a guess based on what car engines burn idling. It may actually burn less. A 1.5 liter Toyota engine used in the Yaris burns about .18 gallons per hour. Most automobile four cylinder engines use about .25 gallons per hour.

All the above is very true yes. All at the expense of not being correctly in control of your bike. Its one of the biggest no no's that I was ever taught.......never coast with the clutch held in. I was taught that the clutch is in only ever at a stop, or when changing gears. At all other times it is left alone whilst riding.

If your super super over excited about fuel mileage.......go ahead and cruise with the clutch in. I dont mind paying an extra 50 cents to cover that extra fuel that I will be burning.

More to the point is the control you have over your bike. For those reading dont ever hold the clutch in during turns, extremely dangerous. If you want to do it on a straight, sure go for it, but you still have less control over your motorcycle and you will be hard pressed to find anyone from a training organisation that will tell you that it is a good way to operate.

 

[my evil twin]

If your super super over excited about fuel mileage.......go ahead and cruise with the clutch in. I dont mind paying an extra 50 cents to cover that extra fuel that I will be burning.

The savings from good gas mileage doesn't amount to a few pennies, it adds up to hundreds of dollars over the years. A bike that gets 55 mpg will burn about 1800 gallons of fuel to go 100,000 miles, a bike that gets 70 mpg will burn only about 1428 gallons, nearly a thousand dollar savings over the course of 100k miles

More to the point is the control you have over your bike. For those reading dont ever hold the clutch in during turns, extremely dangerous. If you want to do it on a straight, sure go for it, but you still have less control over your motorcycle and you will be hard pressed to find anyone from a training organisation that will tell you that it is a good way to operate.

Ever ride a two stroke bike? Almost no engine braking when you close the throttle, yet people rode them just as safely as four strokes that feature lots of engine braking, in fact the moto-gp riders used to brake for turns with the clutch in to reduce the possibility of engine seizure during braking. For some reason, two strokes are most likely to seize up during coasting.
Bicycles default to freewheel whenever you aren't pedaling, yet bicyclists seem to be able to take turns in full control.

A lot of "experts" repeat stuff they learned dogmatically.

 

[xtina]

The savings from good gas mileage doesn't amount to a few pennies, it adds up to hundreds of dollars over the years. A bike that gets 55 mpg will burn about 1800 gallons of fuel to go 100,000 miles, a bike that gets 70 mpg will burn only about 1428 gallons, nearly a thousand dollar savings over the course of 100k miles
Ever ride a two stroke bike? Almost no engine braking when you close the throttle, yet people rode them just as safely as four strokes that feature lots of engine braking, in fact the moto-gp riders used to brake for turns with the clutch in to reduce the possibility of engine seizure during braking. For some reason, two strokes are most likely to seize up during coasting.
Bicycles default to freewheel whenever you aren't pedaling, yet bicyclists seem to be able to take turns in full control.

A lot of "experts" repeat stuff they learned dogmatically.

The danger is if you need to roll on the throttle again you will undoubtedly get a jerk from it engaging and being smooth is key for a turn. cyclists don't have this problem because their pedalling is not as abrupt.

 

[GeneralCarter]

I use the clutch to ac/decelerate smoothly.
straight line coasting with the clutch all the way in feels fine to me.
To me it seems smoother to use the clutch to slow down in a turn(slow turn - red light, stop sign on a curving road.)
You want to accelerate through a fast turn

Seem to me there is a greater possibility to "get a jerk" if you are not using the clutch at all.

Also OP look into 15T front sprocket to help with the engine break & Jerking (search the forum for this info)

 

[zic]

Though I love my 300 in general (about 1500 miles so far), I too am not impressed by the herky-jerky nature of going off/on throttle in 1st and 2nd (at mid to low RPMs).

I used to have a manual 2008 (8th Gen) Honda Civic that did the exact same thing in 1st (and a little bit in 2nd). This was pretty annoying in traffic and parking lots. If you had to decel at low speed, you had to clutch. At the risk of generalization, maybe this is just normal for modern, efficient (DFCO) fueling from Japanese manufacturers.

When I first test drove my manual Golf GTI (mk6), I was amazed at how smooth the fueling was at low speed in first. Even in 1st, you can instantly drop the throttle at any RPM and the car just smoothly decelerates. I assume it must be using fuel (i.e. not just DFCO down to idle) to keep this smooth. So while the Civic might have been a tiny bit more efficient off-throttle in 1st, I'll take the smooth GTI fueling, thank you very much.

I would guess expensive Euro bikes (BMW) are probably similarly more friendly in their fueling.

All that said, I love the 300 and am happy to deal with this quirk with some clutching, especially considering its nice feature set and comparatively low price.

Perhaps this is something that could be modified with aftermarket fueling maps/controllers?