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I personally find it fine for a company to ask for help with legal fees, as much as a find it fine to not help with those legal fees. Or to help, for that matter. I don't think it says anything about the companies management, besides the fact that they think they have enough goodwill with it's customers that some would help. I'm more inclined to apply Heimlen's razor, namely that someone random bloke at the track brought up the idea as a joke and management shrugged and thought they might as well if it didn't cost anything. Trying to pass judgement on the financial state of the company based on this seems to be a stretch. Now if they do this on a routine basis, that's a whole different matter (which doesn't seem to be the case).

Regarding repeated complaints, what company doesn't have them? I'd need explicit cases to give that any credence these days. Journalism currently isn't at it's finest moment right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
My focus was the lawsuit, not the donations. The plaintiff is forcibly asking for donations by suing for millions trying to save his dying company which making a vehicle nobody wants http://litmotors.com/team/.

Again, a rider that is in the advanced group, had gone many times to Laguna Seca, and singed the liability waiver at the track is suing for millions for a "safety" complaint for which SCRAMP, the management company for Laguna Seca, was cleared and determined the sand bags not to be a safety concern but the court allowed him to pursue Keigwins who has nothing to do with the track maintenance.

It is ultimately the responsibility of the rider to ride safely.
 

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My focus was the lawsuit, not the donations.
And I believe that's completely relevant to this forum, and I appreciate your posting.



http://litmotors.com/team/
On that website it states: "While riding his Ducati Motorcycle at Laguna Seca Raceway, Danny was involved in a near death accident caused by misplaced sandbags in the runoff area."

Misplaced sandbags?
 

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My focus was the lawsuit, not the donations. The plaintiff is forcibly asking for donations by suing for millions trying to save his dying company which making a vehicle nobody wants.
Wait, which lawsuit are they looking to fund the defense for, Kim's suit from 2016 or Dziurzynski's from 2017? Or both?
 

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Wait, which lawsuit are they looking to fund the defense for, Kim's suit from 2016 or Dziurzynski's from 2017? Or both?
WHY ARE YOU ASKING THESE PESKY QUESTIONS, THE ONLY THING TO FOCUS ON IS INJUSTICE!! Just send them money (stop looking at their Ferrari).

I do not think, in fact, that there is any lawsuit. I think they are accepting money because people are giving them money. The lawyer of the guy who lost the lawsuit against SCRAMP said they were considering filing a lawsuit against Keigswin. However, they might have decided not to, in the end, or maybe they were just fishing for a quick settlement from Keigswin with threats of a lawsuit, with no intention of ever filing.
 

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....or maybe they were just fishing for a quick settlement from Keigswin with threats of a lawsuit, with no intention of ever filing.
This.
Seems the most likely scenario (for the appeal) to me too.


In the end, I was very interested in reading about the whole thing, and completely NOT interested in donating any monies.

I appreciate the OP for posting it though.


Note: added clarification as to the appeal, not sure if it was clear that the original lawsuit by Danny was lost by the plaintiff, and that subsequently an appeal was threatened.
 

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Wait, which lawsuit are they looking to fund the defense for, Kim's suit from 2016 or Dziurzynski's from 2017? Or both?
Kim's claim was listed as settled with only the Dziurzynski's claim still open with more scheduled dates to come. So this is probably for the Dziurzynski's claim as it seems Dziurzynski is claiming out with Mazda and SCRAM leaving Keigwin alone to fight it.
 

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Kim's claim was listed as settled with only the Dziurzynski's claim still open with more scheduled dates to come. So this is probably for the Dziurzynski's claim as it seems Dziurzynski is claiming out with Mazda and SCRAM leaving Keigwin alone to fight it.
Re-reading the gofundme, it seems like they are talking about Kim's claim (two years ago, contact with sandbags) which is even more curious if that claim was settled, but they are now trying to collect for legal fees for the pending suit.

All I'm saying is I'm getting a funny feeling about this...
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Some salty riders seem to have sued other race orgs/ track day orgs after accidents, specifically at WMRRA. If insurance companies settle after every lawsuit they will refuse to provide coverage for these events road racing could be in trouble in the future. This is the USA, so as long as people see the opportunity to sue they will do it.
 

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Some salty riders seem to have sued other race orgs/ track day orgs after accidents, specifically at WMRRA. If insurance companies settle after every lawsuit they will refuse to provide coverage for these events road racing could be in trouble in the future. This is the USA, so as long as people see the opportunity to sue they will do it.
Conversely, it can be said that so long as those insurance companies and big factory companies settle at the first sign of resistance, I don't really see any way to counter this properly. People sue because they know that most of these companies will settle if things look even remotely questionable and the person suing is asking for a sum that's less than the legal costs plus time would end up being.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
WMRRA webpage announcement:

Washington Motorcycle Road Racing Association


ROUND 1 — Pacific Raceways, Kent, WA
---- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ---
In September of 2017, we were notified of our then current Insurance provider that WMRRA had been absolved of liability regarding an on-track incident in 2013. This incident resulted in a large monetary claim against WMRRA, and Pacific Raceways. Two weeks prior to our policy renewal date of March 1st 2018, the association was notified that our coverage was not being renewed due to a large arbitration settlement. The settlement was covered under our ‘umbrella’ coverage of Pacific Raceways, during our 2013 race-event. WMRRA had not been notified of the final arbitration agreement, nor was the association’s staff asked for testimony or deposition.
Since that day, the senior WMRRA leadership has desperately searched for insurance coverage for the 2018 race-season, and as of this notice has not been successful in securing coverage. After working with multiple-brokers, and seeking assistance from Pacific Raceways directly, WMRRA is unable to secure or guarantee, proper liability coverage, and we must announce the potential cancellation of Round 1 of the 2018 season, at Pacific Raceways. The official cancelation notification will come out Friday 3/30 if racing insurance cannot be secured by then.
The senior leadership does not make this decision lightly, nor was it made hastily. The association continues to ‘turn over every stone’, with the goal of resolving this situation and securing an insurance partner for the remainder of the 2018 race season.
Further information will be released as deemed prudent. The NRS program may be impacted if Round 1 is canceled. More details to follow if that scenario becomes a reality.
Questions may be submitted through the rider representative ([email protected]), or any of the senior Elective-board members ( [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]). Please hold your questions as much as possible to allow us to put maximum effort into insurance research.
Thank you for your understanding.
 

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Well that sucks for WMRRA.

I have to wonder if the better option for race or track day orgs might be to go without insurance and take all that insurance money saved and set it aside for lawyer fees, should they need to defend themselves if some bonehead crashes and hurts himself. The worst that could happen is an org folds the moment they get sued and the person suing isn't going to get anything.

I've said many times, the only way to win the insurance game is to not play it whenever possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Well that sucks for WMRRA.

I have to wonder if the better option for race or track day orgs might be to go without insurance and take all that insurance money saved and set it aside for lawyer fees, should they need to defend themselves if some bonehead crashes and hurts himself. The worst that could happen is an org folds the moment they get sued and the person suing isn't going to get anything.

I've said many times, the only way to win the insurance game is to not play it whenever possible.
That may be the only option for them. I don't think they had too much say when it came to the settlement. The insurance settled and proceeded to drop their coverage.

This is exactly why Keigwins is refusing to settle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·

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On second thought, if insurance companies are unwilling to cover track day events, there will be no more track days/ racing. Most tracks require the track day provider to be insured.

And in case anyone is wondering how much it costs to rent Laguna Seca for one day, it's 14,000$. http://www.mazdaraceway.com/sites/main/files/file-attachments/2017-track_rental_pricing.pdf
The tracks will eventually change or adjust their policy or get their very own underwriter. Tracks absolutely rely on these track day associations to earn them money during the off season times when none of the racing orgs have a race going on at their track. If track days are effectively stopped due to not being able to get insurance, tracks would start going under without a huge financial commitment influx. They'd would also have to charge the major racing orgs a much larger sum just to keep the track open and maintained.
 

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I just saw the video posted there and it changed my mind completely on the issue. Keigwins is guilty. 100%. They will lose this case. I was tempted initially to be on the side of the track day org, but after seeing that, I'm not. That org is done.

A F'n sandbag should never be that close to the track. You guys had me thinking the sandbag was way off in the distance.


The video also reinforces my generalization that all track day riders on Panigales are total idiots. He's 20 degrees short of his max lean angle and he still went off the track.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 · (Edited)
I just saw the video posted there and it changed my mind completely on the issue. Keigwins is guilty. 100%. They will lose this case. I was tempted initially to be on the side of the track day org, but after seeing that, I'm not. That org is done.

A F'n sandbag should never be that close to the track. You guys had me thinking the sandbag was way off in the distance.

The video also reinforces my generalization that all track day riders on Panigales are total idiots. He's 20 degrees short of his max lean angle and he still went off the track.
Yeah, I don't think so. The sand bag was at a reasonable distance from the run off area. The sand bag was discussed at the riders meeting which Mr Kim neglected to attend. Mr Kim was aware of the sand bag as he had gone to Laguna Seca on previous occasions and was riding in the group A session and didn't seem to bother him until he rode beyond his abilities. The guy has a recorded time of 1:44. Also, you are typically expected to slow down in that area due to the sound booth 90 Db limit and there is no passing allowed there.

This guy is a joke trying to get 20 million for his failing company.

In addition, this is the was he is twisting the case (If you read this and don't think it's BS then I don't know what else to say): https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianeyvkoff/2016/02/18/what-immobility-taught-this-transportation-ceo-about-mobility/#2f4153d558c4

Part of designing a new product involves evaluating the competition—you determine the benchmark in your segment, then aim to beat it. For Daniel Kim, CEO of Lit Motors, which is building a fully enclosed, self-balancing, two-wheeled vehicle, that meant equipping his Ducati 1199 Panigale sportbike with sensors and turning laps on a racetrack to gather the data behind how a motorcycle feels and performs at 40, 45, and even 50-degree lean angles while cornering. By happenstance, he experienced his benchmark’s main weakness firsthand. That is, he discovered what it feels like when the human body collides with a stationary object at 80 miles per hour.

Kim was testing his Ducati in a controlled environment at a reputable race track, which he says is the safest place to ride a motorcycle. In an attempt to avoid a collision with another vehicle, he hit a row of sandbags in the track’s runoff area. Confronted with a car’s mass, sandbags offer a measure of give and cushion, slowing an out-of-control car by absorbing some energy. When assaulted by a hurtling human body, sandbags don’t give a whole lot.

Nearly a year after his epic wipeout, Kim is finally able to walk without assistance. He’s watched the video of his accident at least 300 times, and it’s not hyperbole when he says he’s lucky to be alive in the first place. Nine bone fractures, a shattered hip, and a torn ACL are just some of the cringe-inducing injuries he rattles off as a result of his high speed motorcycle crash. But for the grace of God, none of them were to his spine or head, he says.


--

If he was TESTING his motorcycle for acquisition of data for his prototype he could have easily rented the track for that specific purpose and not put others in danger with his uncontrolled riding.
 

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I felt sorry for the guy injuring himself so much. I think we should all have the compassion to understand he was hurt, regardless of whether it was 100% his fault or not.

as I explained in my other posts (sorry for repeating myself), I was against the company asking for donations since (among other reasons) they have legal insurance, which apparently covers up to $5m, according to the revzilla article.

now up until now, I was not very familiar with the details of the accident, so I was not sure how much each party was guilty.

however, after watching the video, and reading several comments on revzilla, it seems that:

1. the guy did a bad mistake in the corner
2. hitting the bag was really really bad for him, as he fell in front of the motorcycle.
3. several people noted the bags would be removed for an "official" competition race.

I honestly thought Keigswin would win the lawsuit with ease. After watching the video, I would not be too surprised they lose. Kim hired a really good lawyer. Jurors are normal people, probably with no experience in racing.

I think there is a real chance that a majority of jurors, upon watching the video, will side with Kim.

Now, I'm not here to say whether Kim is in the right or not, because I have no experience racing. But if Kim's lawyers put the track workers on the stand and ask "are the sandbags removed for official track races events?" and they say "yes", it will look very damaging.

I think the video, watched by someone with no racing experience, makes it look like Kim would have low sided without the sandbag, but the sandbag made him fall in front of the bike. (you're welcome to correct me, I'm just saying how it looks like to me, with no racing experience)

If that's true, all culpable actions that led to that point (not attending the safety meeting, all the mistakes he did in that corner) might decrease Keigswin's liability, but not entirely.

I think the only way Keigswin can win is if they put someone on the stand who can say that Kim could have had a similar accident on that corner even without the sandbags. Since I have no racing experience, I don't know if that's possible. If it is possible, then it could put enough of a doubt in the jurors to side against Kim. If that kind of accident is impossible without the sandbag, I myself, who came into this story kind of siding against Kim, would also seriously consider ruling in his favor.

I am grateful, actually, I don't need to make this kind of judgement.

I think if I were Keigswin, I would seriously consider letting the insurance settle for the $2m that revzilla said Kim offered to settle for, even though up to now I agreed with the owner's decision to fight it.

I don't know what the impact would be on track day insurance. On one hand, doctors get sued all the time, but they still get insurance as far as I know. On the other hand racing is a smaller business for sure.
 
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