Kawasaki Ninja 300 Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
How does in Kawa Ninja 300 ABS work ? I mean:which way. If one pushes only front break it means that the rear break automatically begin to work at the same time ? And vice versa... Pushing only rear brake automatically engage the front one? It works as described over in Honda CBR what is called C-ABS BTW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter #3

·
Registered
Joined
·
958 Posts
Combined braking is rare in the motorcycle world, very few bikes have this. In theory it sounds great, but when riding a bike sometimes you only want to use the front or the back brake (for instance when trail braking) so this may not be ideal. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but each system has pro's an con's.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
400 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Combined braking is rare in the motorcycle world, very few bikes have this. In theory it sounds great, but when riding a bike sometimes you only want to use the front or the back brake (for instance when trail braking) so this may not be ideal. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but each system has pro's an con's.
Yep, you're right but in my opinion combined braking is more "stright" at the moment one need it and the technic decided how balance it. But again it's just my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
OP is describing linked braking system.

ABS is where the rotation of the tires is monitored, and if one locks while the other spins, the offending brake is pulsed to allow some rotation. Not sure what happens if both tires lock simultaneously. The ECU must take last known speed into consideration.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,516 Posts
Combined braking is rare in the motorcycle world, very few bikes have this. In theory it sounds great, but when riding a bike sometimes you only want to use the front or the back brake (for instance when trail braking) so this may not be ideal. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but each system has pro's an con's.
Linked or combined ABS braking systems were for a while the more common ABS systems as they're a much easier system to implement. Instead of regulating a bunch of valves simultaneously, it only has to work one valve and can use a much easier algorithm using a speed differential between both wheels to determine the need for ABS.

Yep, you're right but in my opinion combined braking is more "stright" at the moment one need it and the technic decided how balance it. But again it's just my opinion.
There isn't any real need to do any extra work on an un-linked system for ABS work. Also, those linked systems are only partially linked and not fully linked like the brakes on a scooter. Hitting the front goes full power to the front and a reduced braking bias towards the rear. When the rear pedal is used, it's just the rear brake being engaged and not both on most linked systems. I prefer having total control and input on my brakes as there are a very small amount of times where using the wrong brake may lead to some bad times.

OP is describing linked braking system.

ABS is where the rotation of the tires is monitored, and if one locks while the other spins, the offending brake is pulsed to allow some rotation. Not sure what happens if both tires lock simultaneously. The ECU must take last known speed into consideration.
The ECU itself I don't believe monitors the ABS system. The ABS hydraulic control unit has it's own logic unit to handle braking and sensory input. The computer is complex enough to individually monitor and engage the front and rear ABS independently as the hydraulic unit has two chambers to isolate the front and rear systems. Otherwise it'd be stupid to have two reservoirs as they would equalize and mix within the ABS hydraulic unit. The older systems used a very rudimentary monitoring system using both wheels so if you locked both wheels, the logic unit would stop modulating and default open since it believes you're completely stopped. I think the newer units like the one in our bike uses a differential speed indication based on time rather than using two sets of inputs. We've had people on the forums who've engaged ABS with BOTH wheels and came out fine and felt the ABS working in both lever and pedal. It would be a relatively simple computation to do where when the signal goes from a certain charge level from the speed sensor to zero faster than is possible to reliably stop, the wheel probably locked and should engage the ABS. It just has to monitor how quickly the wheel slows down to a stop and can just engage from there. If it every goes from a progressive to sudden stoppage it knows that the wheel locked. Once you are below a certain speed, the charge from the speed sensors isn't above a set level and the unit knows that you aren't at a needed speed to be engaged. It's still monitoring the speed sensors and once the speed sensors generate enough of a charge it tells the ABS unit to turn on.

Not 100% sure on the exact details of it all since I haven't broken it down and looked at the programing, but it's a similar system that the newer cars are using now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Yes. Linked braking system ABS vs combined ABS braking system were exactly what I meant ( didn't find the proper names in my previous post- my poor english ). Your inputs here are very interesting but whatever one think I suppose that Honda's combined C-ABS seems to be more innovative and easy ( no two push two independent breaks needed )one IMO. And I dare to claim it will be implement by others companies pretty soon.
@MoFetti How many times did you have a flat on the tires during the ride ? Nothing personal here :). I'm just curious.

OT. New Yamaha models to be show today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,516 Posts
Yes. Linked braking system ABS vs combined ABS braking system were exactly what I meant ( didn't find the proper names in my previous post- my poor english ). Your inputs here are very interesting but whatever one think I suppose that Honda's combined C-ABS seems to be more innovative and easy ( no two push two independent breaks needed )one IMO. And I dare to claim it will be implement by others companies pretty soon.
@MoFetti How many times did you have a flat on the tires during the ride ? Nothing personal here :). I'm just curious.

OT. New Yamaha models to be show today.
The linked ABS systems are actually getting phased out as they're older technology from a day when that was the only way to do ABS. Only Honda and I think maybe BMW does the linked system. Also, like I said in my above post, combined brakes used in the ABS system is partially biased. Not fully linked. Using the front brake only engages the rear brake partially. You still have to use the rear brake to get full braking effect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
The linked ABS systems are actually getting phased out as they're older technology from a day when that was the only way to do ABS. Only Honda and I think maybe BMW does the linked system. Also, like I said in my above post, combined brakes used in the ABS system is partially biased. Not fully linked. Using the front brake only engages the rear brake partially. You still have to use the rear brake to get full braking effect.
You're partialy right but can't agree with your -quoted- last two sentences. The thing I meant is that in any case pushing one of the brake ( front or rear ) is enough to make both of them ( fully as needed ) working. I short: one push makes as you push front and/or separately."A combined braking system (C-ABS)...In this system, the rider's action of depressing one of the brake levers applies both front and rear brakes."Source:Wikipedia.org More info here:
http://www.moto123.com/motorcycle-news/article,c-abs-hondas-electronic-braking-system.spy?artid=106055

Or... or I got it wrong as I'm not english native speaker :-(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
There are so many variations of everything, there is no one statement that holds true for all cases. I would hardly take Wikipedia as the final word -- it's a great starting point for further research.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hey 300 guys I have a question for you. I am in the process of swapping a 2014 ninja 300 abs engine into a Z-125. I am not altering any of the wire harness except for the lights and turn signals. I am gearing the smaller wheel to a 32tooth 520pitch sprocket so the speed/gearing ratio will be identical to the stock 300 wheel. My question has to so with the ABS. Does anyone know if the ABS brain receives a speed signal from the ECU? (off the output shaft from the engine) I assume the hydraulic module itself has accelerometers in it, but I need to know if the two are linked. If they are I will have to cnc machine new abs rings that go from the factory 50 slots down to 37 slots so the abs brain knows the actual speed of the bike due to the smaller tire diameter. I assume I'll throw a CEL or fault code if this is the case. If they do not talk I will just leave the factory ones in and let the brain think the bike is traveling faster than actual speed. But that leads to me my last question as to how the brain knows at what speed to stop the pulsing, such as when your stopped at a light the system is not continuing to pulse the calipers. Thanks to anyone who understands this particular system better than I do!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hey 300 guys I have a question for you. I am in the process of swapping a 2014 ninja 300 abs engine into a Z-125. I am not altering any of the wire harness except for the lights and turn signals. I am gearing the smaller wheel to a 32tooth 520pitch sprocket so the speed/gearing ratio will be identical to the stock 300 wheel. My question has to so with the ABS. Does anyone know if the ABS brain receives a speed signal from the ECU? (off the output shaft from the engine) I assume the hydraulic module itself has accelerometers in it, but I need to know if the two are linked. If they are I will have to cnc machine new abs rings that go from the factory 50 slots down to 37 slots so the abs brain knows the actual speed of the bike due to the smaller tire diameter. I assume I'll throw a CEL or fault code if this is the case. If they do not talk I will just leave the factory ones in and let the brain think the bike is traveling faster than actual speed. But that leads to me my last question as to how the brain knows at what speed to stop the pulsing, such as when your stopped at a light the system is not continuing to pulse the calipers. Thanks to anyone who understands this particular system better than I do!!!
Hi colleague. I`m swapping ABS unit into Honda Hawk GT 650 (Bros 650)
ABS doesn`t take any signal from ECU or engine - it have even two sets of sensors to measure the speed.And i`m not sure if it has accelerometers on ninja 300 - it`s
simple ABS design, not controlling lean/wheelies at all, it has two speed sensors..
About your wheel size example - for example your wheels total diameter is twice smaller than Ninja 300 , so you if you will put same rings as on it . they reach 20km/h (when ABS , assume, start working) on 10 km/h actually and all way ABS will think you move twice faster then you actually are.
But if you reduce number of slots on ABS rotor two times (as well as wheel size reduced twice) ABS will know actual speed correctly.
So main idea - keep same amount of impulses during movement as it`s generated on Ninja 300, No errors if front/rear impulse amount RATIO is correct , if amount of pulses on front and rear for any reason (number of slots or speed) increases on same multiplier - abs works fine, just thinks you moving faster than you actually are.

PS: Can you share how you wire up ABS unit ?
I`ve wired it , but it does not generate any signal to ABS LED indicator after powering on, and only have power on rear sensor, nothing on front. I`m think unit is broken, so trying figure out how it works on same conditions - without connection to original meter unit etc.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top