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Well, I think that argument could be made for most crashes. If the person was going more slowly, it may not have happened.

Here, it looks like the front end washed out. Going into the turn, the bike was engine braking. At a lean angle like that, especially with a wet road, you don't want to do that -- the front tire has far too much load on it. At that same speed and lean, if he was gently accelerating (enough to keep most [ideally 60%, as per Keith Code] of the weight on the rear tire), he probably would have been fine.

So, not necessarily too fast, but coming in too fast, and not accelerating through the turn.

Anyone disagree?


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Discussion Starter #22
Well, I think that argument could be made for most crashes. If the person was going more slowly, it may not have happened.

Here, it looks like the front end washed out. Going into the turn, the bike was engine braking. At a lean angle like that, especially with a wet road, you don't want to do that -- the front tire has far too much load on it. At that same speed and lean, if he was gently accelerating (enough to keep most [ideally 60%, as per Keith Code] of the weight on the rear tire), he probably would have been fine.

So, not necessarily too fast, but coming in too fast, and not accelerating through the turn.

Anyone disagree?


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I guess the audio is key. I went back to listen carefully, and he downshifts at 19 seconds, engine breaks through 22 seconds, then keeps the rpms steady till the crash. I wonder if it still would have happened if he rolled on the throttle to load the rear properly.
 

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I guess the audio is key. I went back to listen carefully, and he downshifts at 19 seconds, engine breaks through 22 seconds, then keeps the rpms steady till the crash. I wonder if it still would have happened if he rolled on the throttle to load the rear properly.
Probably the same thing. I was expecting an increase in revs which would have caused the rear tire to slip causing the low side. He was probably running stock tires and just was down on his luck that day.
 

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This one, clearly going too fast into a descending radius turn.
I called it as soon as I saw he waited until he was on the road to start messing with his camera. That, and his mirrors are all crooked :thumbdown:

with regard to rnickeymouse, I thought about this out a few weeks ago (unless I'm thinking about this too hard), it seems to me as though he was going for "mickeymouse", but because it was taken, he used an "r" and an "n" together, "rn" to look like an "m". (but I can't help but read it as "are-nickey".)

:D ;) :roll2smilie:

"You think you're good at driving? You only think you're good because the other driver isn't as stupid as you thinking he's superman."
I'm constantly telling my girlfriend (who just started driving and whom I taught), "Other drivers on the road have NO idea how lucky they are that I'm a good driver - otherwise, they'd be paying up for an accident right now."
The best way to approach street riding (or driving) is to know you're not superman, but also to treat all other motorists as if they're about to do something stupid - don't give them the chance to involve you in it. Analyze and avoid.

I can't imagine a steel plate, or anything a road construction crew would leave in the road, being thicker than a squirrel. Still sucks that he fell...
You clearly have never been down to Baltimore, MD or Washington, D.C. :no: There are plenty of areas where construction crews seem to scrape up the road to apply a new coat of pavement... and then leave it to be finished months later. Plenty of ups and downs in the road that are a 4-6 inch difference from the rest of the road, and not gradually at all.
Even if the difference wasn't too great, though, perhaps he was trying to avoid it because of the slick metal, for fear of losing traction.

too fast, bad angle, brake, let the bike go, etc
It really bothers me that this guy stopped to help the rider who crashed... and when he was clearly struggling with the bike, no one else bothered to help him (including the rider who crashed it!) until he asked for it. :emot-rant:
 

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You clearly have never been down to Baltimore, MD or Washington, D.C. :no: There are plenty of areas where construction crews seem to scrape up the road to apply a new coat of pavement... and then leave it to be finished months later. Plenty of ups and downs in the road that are a 4-6 inch difference from the rest of the road, and not gradually at all.
Even if the difference wasn't too great, though, perhaps he was trying to avoid it because of the slick metal, for fear of losing traction.
Clearly, because since I don't live in Baltimore or Washington, D.C., I have not experienced horrible roads. Also, I have been to Baltimore & Washington, D.C. Also, I live in CA where the roads are horrible. :p
 

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It's this type of crash that worries me when I view these videos. Okay, he was going fast (89 kph according to his speedo) but the corner didn't look dangerously tight, the road wasn't overly wet (perhaps a little damp in a few spots) and his lean didn't look outrageous. Yet he still went down.


I don't get it. Is there really such a small margin for error? Because if there is I'm wondering why I'm not crashing every other trip I take!
 

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I don't get it. Is there really such a small margin for error? Because if there is I'm wondering why I'm not crashing every other trip I take!
*Cough* Crappy stock tires *Cough*
 

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Mate, if that's all it takes to push the stocks past their limit I'm off to get some Pilot Street Radials or DRIIs tomorrow!
Let me just say this: I could turn at speed on my old CBR600RR. I can't turn at speed on the 300 because the confidence just isn't there. I always get feedback telling me that I'll end up off the bike if I push any further. I've had a close call with losing the front while turning into a parking lot as well.
 

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Let me just say this: I could turn at speed on my old CBR600RR. I can't turn at speed on the 300 because the confidence just isn't there. I always get feedback telling me that I'll end up off the bike if I push any further.
Having both a 300 (with stock tires), and a CBR600RR (with Pilot Road 3s) as well, I can also attest to this. The stock tires just aren't that great. I have plenty of tread still left on mine... they just don't want to grip. Even my balding, deflated tires on the 600RR held better than the 300's :unsure:
 

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my friend going down on his 650. I'm in the very front leading the pack

 

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no gravel on the road. if you look carefully you see the guy infront of him blowing the line and going past the double yellow. He followed, saw him blow the line, panicked and locked up his brakes.



 

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It's this type of crash that worries me when I view these videos. Okay, he was going fast (89 kph according to his speedo) but the corner didn't look dangerously tight, the road wasn't overly wet (perhaps a little damp in a few spots) and his lean didn't look outrageous. Yet he still went down.


I don't get it. Is there really such a small margin for error? Because if there is I'm wondering why I'm not crashing every other trip I take!
I haven't had any issues yet with the stock rubber. It's not the most grippy compound out there, but it's certainly not the worst tire I've ever ridden on either. There have been quite a few people who have taken their stock 300s and pushed the living hell out of them with stock rubber and came out just fine.

In the video linked above, what got him was too much dynamic lateral movement prior to the turn. Unless you're going really slow speeds, you generally should not be whipping to the outside of the turn and then sharp steering in. Quickly changing turning vectors the way he did as well as accelerating through the turn, prevented the rear from properly settling and gripping and caused it to spin out. When you don't have super grippy tires with a relatively small contact patch, you gotta be a lot more careful with the throttle and the suspension on these bikes isn't very awesome so it's easy to destabilize a wheel and more difficult to get it planted properly again. He was screwing off and his bike made him pay for it. High rate of change turning is one of the most difficult demands on a tire. Which is why chicanes and technical S-turns are some of the most difficult to do and some of the easiest to come off on. Many of these technical chicanes and S turns aren't very sharp, but the difficulty comes when you force your tire to transition laterally very quickly in a short amount of time. If he had simply and smoothly positioned himself to his line instead of weaving around, he probably would have made what would have amounted to another standard vlog.

While better griping tires do help without a doubt, many single vehicle crashes can find the operator with a great degree of fault.

I wouldn't take this video and those like it and then panic and run out and buy new tires because of it. There are videos of people with better tires doing the exact same thing on any of these videos and crashing. What's the fault then? Towards the end of that video you also see quite a bit of grit and sand near the outer edge of that video he went down on too. The key to staying up on a bike and turning is smoothness and eliminating excess movement. I've seen very good riders take shit bikes with shit tires and still out turn those on better quality bikes and tires. They don't have a magical pocket leprechaun that keeps them up. If you watch professional riders ride, they don't do huge gross, over exaggerated movements. It's generally very minimalist and efficient and right down to business. Pretty much the exact opposite of what you saw in this particularly linked video.
 

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Freelancer touched on a good point, the contact patch of the tyres them-self.

as a rule of thumb the tyre contact patch of a motorcycle tyre on the ground is about the size of a credit card , that’s a credit card worth of rubber under the front tyre and a credit card size of rubber under the rear wheel that is in contact with the ground.

that’s not a lot of rubber considering the size/weight/power of the bike & you combined.

food for thought
 
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