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87 Posts
I'm with them I don't want abs. Just learn to ride better. Abs protects against bad braking and jamming the brakes in panic (usually caused by lack of attentivness then realizing you messed up).
ABS vs Non-ABS
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119 Posts
Have a set of Gixxer six piston Tokicos kicking around...Braided line, six piston caliper, some good pads.....I guess I'll try it when the warranty is up! Wouldn't want to try and get a warped disc fixed under warranty with the different caliper....Any thoughts....
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2,942 Posts
What worries me about ABS is that all these new rides will get it embedded in their minds just grab teh lever and the bike does the rest.. Wait until ABS malfunctions and you fly over the handlebars because you dont know how to ride a bike without ABS..
Just my thoughts, there are pros and cons for both sides.
Just my thoughts, there are pros and cons for both sides.
Joined
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87 Posts
Yeah. Then we may end up with 2015 hondamatic 400s with abs, traction control, and power modes. I understand their usefullness just think it'd be better to learn without. I only have 4 years daily experience so I'm still learning. Ill still be learning at 20 years daily. So for me its not gonna be. But as they say to each their own. If someone thinks its best for them, let do.
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42 Posts
whats your honest opinion on them?? Ive been leaning towords ABS but now im not sure...this would be my first bike so itll all transfer over when i make the leap to a 600.
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1,139 Posts
I look at it this way:
Yes, one could learn to abuse the fact that they have ABS and feel they don't need to learn proper braking technique. IMO, you'd have to be pretty ignorant of riding mechanics to think like this. Some people will say it's good to learn on a non-ABS bike for this reason because you are forced to learn proper braking technique. But tragically, many people that do lean on non-ABS bikes run into situations where ABS or experience could have saved them from a crash, but with neither available, they had to deal with the consequences.
First off, when you are in an emergency braking situation, riders tend to panic. When you panic, there is no time to think. Your braking technique is built into muscle memory which you've fine tuned with experience. This leads to 2 rider scenarios.
1) If you are experienced, you have probably practised braking in these conditions before, and you've done it enough to quickly and gradually apply break near to the point a tire will lock. And if you're really good, the tire may lock but you'd be experienced enough to let off the brake a bit and save it.
2) New riders, or experienced ones that have not practised enough will do one of 2 things.
A) They will panic, lay on too much brake, lock a tire (disastrous if it's the front) and go for a slide.
B) Apply too little brake for fear of locking a tire (don't know where the limit is) and slam into the object they were trying to avoid hitting.
In scenario 2, ABS could have helped in both situations. In A, it would have coped with the rider panicking and prevented the tire from locking. In B, it would have allowed the rider to brake with enough confidence that they may have avoided hitting that object.
From this we have established that ABS is more useful to new riders than no ABS. Especially if you find yourself getting caught in the rain a lot.
Remember how I mentioned even experienced riders screw up their braking? This happens when riders are afraid to push their limits during regular riding, and haven't put enough time into parking lot drills in various driving conditions. Like mentioned before, this can cause them to brake too much or too little during an emergency situation because their muscle memory isn't used to finding the limit of the bike. This is where ABS can safely help a rider improve at a rapid pace without needing to worry about the consequences of locking a tire. Go practice in the rain: Aggressively, but gradually, apply brake until the ABS kicks in, then lay off until the ABS stops, and try to brake at the limit where the ABS doesn't engage. You just did the same thing someone without ABS would do (Scenario 1), except you could practice threshold braking without worrying about locking the tires. Keep doing this until you build confidence in finding the limits at different speeds, in different conditions (like the wet).
A good practice I like to do in my car (especially in snow or rain) is brake aggressively with no traffic around me and feel when the ABS comes on. First I try to predict where the tires will begin locking based on what the road looks like, and then I see what the ABS does. Then I have a good idea of how much grip I actually have and drive accordingly. It's a tool that can only help you drive better IMO. Know your traction limitations, and brake within them, and you'll never be someone who depends on it to be a good rider. But if you do need it, it will always be there to lend a hand.
And for those that say you can out brake an ABS system. Yea, you can, but not by much, and only if you have a very good idea of the traction you have with the road. Throw in a panic situation where you may not be completely sure where the tire will break free, and I say good luck beating it on a consistent basis. As for ABS failing. From my research, the whole braking system is far more likely to break overall before the ABS system does. And besides, you'll only be like any other rider without it if you practice proper braking technique despite the fact you know you have ABS.
If you happen to dispute a general fact I wrote, please respond with a link to a research paper. Everyone has opinions, but I like facts to back them up. I just paraphrased what I've learned through research and was too lazy to find good sources to list here.
Hey moderators..i feel like this thread has a lot of semi off topic discussion. Perhaps we could move the relivent ABS bits to a ABS VS Non-ABS thread to keep this one clean
Yes, one could learn to abuse the fact that they have ABS and feel they don't need to learn proper braking technique. IMO, you'd have to be pretty ignorant of riding mechanics to think like this. Some people will say it's good to learn on a non-ABS bike for this reason because you are forced to learn proper braking technique. But tragically, many people that do lean on non-ABS bikes run into situations where ABS or experience could have saved them from a crash, but with neither available, they had to deal with the consequences.
First off, when you are in an emergency braking situation, riders tend to panic. When you panic, there is no time to think. Your braking technique is built into muscle memory which you've fine tuned with experience. This leads to 2 rider scenarios.
1) If you are experienced, you have probably practised braking in these conditions before, and you've done it enough to quickly and gradually apply break near to the point a tire will lock. And if you're really good, the tire may lock but you'd be experienced enough to let off the brake a bit and save it.
2) New riders, or experienced ones that have not practised enough will do one of 2 things.
A) They will panic, lay on too much brake, lock a tire (disastrous if it's the front) and go for a slide.
B) Apply too little brake for fear of locking a tire (don't know where the limit is) and slam into the object they were trying to avoid hitting.
In scenario 2, ABS could have helped in both situations. In A, it would have coped with the rider panicking and prevented the tire from locking. In B, it would have allowed the rider to brake with enough confidence that they may have avoided hitting that object.
From this we have established that ABS is more useful to new riders than no ABS. Especially if you find yourself getting caught in the rain a lot.
Remember how I mentioned even experienced riders screw up their braking? This happens when riders are afraid to push their limits during regular riding, and haven't put enough time into parking lot drills in various driving conditions. Like mentioned before, this can cause them to brake too much or too little during an emergency situation because their muscle memory isn't used to finding the limit of the bike. This is where ABS can safely help a rider improve at a rapid pace without needing to worry about the consequences of locking a tire. Go practice in the rain: Aggressively, but gradually, apply brake until the ABS kicks in, then lay off until the ABS stops, and try to brake at the limit where the ABS doesn't engage. You just did the same thing someone without ABS would do (Scenario 1), except you could practice threshold braking without worrying about locking the tires. Keep doing this until you build confidence in finding the limits at different speeds, in different conditions (like the wet).
A good practice I like to do in my car (especially in snow or rain) is brake aggressively with no traffic around me and feel when the ABS comes on. First I try to predict where the tires will begin locking based on what the road looks like, and then I see what the ABS does. Then I have a good idea of how much grip I actually have and drive accordingly. It's a tool that can only help you drive better IMO. Know your traction limitations, and brake within them, and you'll never be someone who depends on it to be a good rider. But if you do need it, it will always be there to lend a hand.
And for those that say you can out brake an ABS system. Yea, you can, but not by much, and only if you have a very good idea of the traction you have with the road. Throw in a panic situation where you may not be completely sure where the tire will break free, and I say good luck beating it on a consistent basis. As for ABS failing. From my research, the whole braking system is far more likely to break overall before the ABS system does. And besides, you'll only be like any other rider without it if you practice proper braking technique despite the fact you know you have ABS.
If you happen to dispute a general fact I wrote, please respond with a link to a research paper. Everyone has opinions, but I like facts to back them up. I just paraphrased what I've learned through research and was too lazy to find good sources to list here.
Hey moderators..i feel like this thread has a lot of semi off topic discussion. Perhaps we could move the relivent ABS bits to a ABS VS Non-ABS thread to keep this one clean
Joined
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540 Posts
I feel like this whole debate is the old guard resisting new technology as with everything else.
I am a new rider and ABS has activated a few times due to excessive rear brake and not enough front. New rider mistake, sue me! But I'm not willfully satisfied with the fact that I have this safety feature. I'm learning proper braking technique just like any new rider should, with or without ABS. The only difference is, if I get it wrong, I'm not going to eat pavement. The pulsating feedback from the ABS is enough to tell me I screwed up and not to do it again. After all, if all goes to plan, the ABS is not going to interfere.
Will there be riders out there who overly rely on ABS? Probably; but they're probably the same riders that would go down every few weeks w/o ABS.
ABS is just a tool. The main safety system on any motor vehicle is found inside your helmet. Unfortunately, this system isn't always 100% efficient, so having an extra layer of safety can't possibly hurt.
I am a new rider and ABS has activated a few times due to excessive rear brake and not enough front. New rider mistake, sue me! But I'm not willfully satisfied with the fact that I have this safety feature. I'm learning proper braking technique just like any new rider should, with or without ABS. The only difference is, if I get it wrong, I'm not going to eat pavement. The pulsating feedback from the ABS is enough to tell me I screwed up and not to do it again. After all, if all goes to plan, the ABS is not going to interfere.
Will there be riders out there who overly rely on ABS? Probably; but they're probably the same riders that would go down every few weeks w/o ABS.
ABS is just a tool. The main safety system on any motor vehicle is found inside your helmet. Unfortunately, this system isn't always 100% efficient, so having an extra layer of safety can't possibly hurt.
Joined
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1,025 Posts
I have ABS on my bike (activated it once) and the way I look at it is that it's for unexpected things. I listen to riders all day long saying how they are great riders, they don't want ABS and new riders should be able to brake without locking up the wheels. You can train forever, but you can't train for the unexpected (like the mom in the SUV who pull's in front of you while talking on the phone). So I'm all for ABS and I believe that soon it will be mandatory on all motorcycles. (and I think that's a good thing)
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1,139 Posts
Yup, that's definitely one of the advantages I mentioned in the super long read. You can practice to the limit without needing to worry about the tire locking on you. This will accelerate your learning process since you won't be afraid to test the limits of grip under straight line braking.
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