Drive train lash anyone? - Page 3 - Kawasaki Ninja 300 Forum
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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 04:40 PM
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I say pull the clutch and just have a look see for sure before giving up on it.
Yes the type and age of oil can have some effect on clutch and transmission operation.
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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:19 PM
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I used to run Rotella T6 in my SV, but after about 1000 mi the shifting deteriorated. I've been using Mobil 1 10W-40 4T for a few years now, and shift is consistently smooth.

I'm not convinced there is a major trans problem.
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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:32 PM
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Yeah I see people all the time touting T6 like they discovered some secret recipe or something. The thing they dont realize is the only reason T6 meets the motorcycle requirement is that it doesn't contain friction modifiers. The reality is its a diesel oil first and foremost and while it technically meets the requirement there are better choices out there. The only advantage T6 has is its cheap.
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post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think i will ride out this oil change, and come the next one I will pop the clutch cover off and take a peak. I rode it all round town today, got a wide variety of riding in, and actually today the transmission did pretty good. No odd behavior, but the lash was still there of course. My buddy thinks this is just an age thing, and that most bikes develop a non-zero amount of drive train lash just with miles, and that it in itself isn't all too bad. Maybe I am blowing this out of proportion? It is my first and only bike at this time, so I don't know much else.

Maybe my rushing to sell was a little too soon. Perhaps at the higher mileage, I should shorten my oil change interval or something of the like. Does anyone have a bike with like 50+ thousand miles with drivetrain or transmission lash not a real issue at all? Maybe the other day I reported all the issues, I was just having a rough day and my technique was poor or something. I guess it would have to do with riding style as well, I never notice any of this when I'm ripping through the canyon roads, it's mostly the calm rides that it gets to me most.

I'm a little over a third into this oil change interval, so I will report back on any updates or changes, and clutch condition. Thanks for your help guys.
-Mike
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post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 06:56 AM
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How often do you change your oil?
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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 10:32 AM
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What oil are you using?

Look for info on how to check for a worn clutch basket before you open it up. You are certain the clutch springs you installed are correct - right?

There's nothing wrong with T6 or other diesel oils. It's perfectly safe for cycle engines (has adequate ZDDP for a solid-lifter engine) - unlike current auto oils. I run T6 in a lot of different bikes, but found my SV just doesn't like it after a while.

No 40-grade oil (5W-40, 10W-40, etc) of any type contains friction modifiers. The issue is a lack of Zinc and Phosphorus (ZDDP) in current auto oils (all grades) due to emissions restrictions. ZDDP is a safety net for the cams/rockers/lifters/high pressure contact points to protect them from galling before there is adequate oil flow. Diesel and cycle-specific oils have what you need, auto oils don't.
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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 11:16 AM
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I don't think this is is correct. The JASO MA standard (the one for motorcycles) is specific to not having friction modifiers.
And says nothing about zinc content.
I looked up a few 40w gasoline engine oils and they all state having friction modifiers.
The issue with modifiers (and the reason for the JASO MA standard) is they can lead to wet clutch slippage.

As for T6, it has plenty of additives but according to their site they are all designed to enhance performance in diesel engines.

Like I said, T6 may be fine and won't lead to wet clutch slippage but I can't see how it could be as good as an oil specifically made for motorcycle engines. Everyone can make their own choices but for me I'll spend the extra few bucks and feel confident I'm used an oil designed for the purpose.
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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennylxix View Post
I don't think this is is correct. The JASO MA standard (the one for motorcycles) is specific to not having friction modifiers.
And says nothing about zinc content.
I looked up a few 40w gasoline engine oils and they all state having friction modifiers.
The issue with modifiers (and the reason for the JASO MA standard) is they can lead to wet clutch slippage.

As for T6, it has plenty of additives but according to their site they are all designed to enhance performance in diesel engines.

Like I said, T6 may be fine and won't lead to wet clutch slippage but I can't see how it could be as good as an oil specifically made for motorcycle engines. Everyone can make their own choices but for me I'll spend the extra few bucks and feel confident I'm used an oil designed for the purpose.
Where did you see that?

If you look at the back of an oil bottle for the API "donut" you will see if an oil has Friction Modifiers or not. If it does it will say "Energy Conserving" at the bottom in the donut. If it doesn't say that it doesn't have them.

Find me any 40-grade oil that says "Energy Conserving".
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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 07:44 PM
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Well now I can't find them. I may have been looking at something different.
However the energy conserving tag just means the oil is rated to get slightly higher gas mileage. It doesn't specify how. Friction modifiers are a common way but having that label doesn't guarantee that there are modifiers and not having it doesn't guarantee that there aren't.
Regardless we are kind of straying away from the original point. T6 is technically rated for motorcycles. That is because they meet the jaso ma standard. This standard states there are no friction modifiers. The lack of friction modifiers is to ensure compatibility with the wet clutch. That's it. By rotellas own website T6 is specifically designed as a diesel oil with formulations and additives specific to diesels. I can't imagine it's as good for a motorcycle engine, clutch and transmission as a dedicated motorcycle engine oil.
In my now pretty extensive research into the subject I really can't see any advantage to t6 other than price while motorcycle oils are, ya know, made for motorcycles....
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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennylxix View Post
Well now I can't find them. I may have been looking at something different.
However the energy conserving tag just means the oil is rated to get slightly higher gas mileage. It doesn't specify how. Friction modifiers are a common way but having that label doesn't guarantee that there are modifiers and not having it doesn't guarantee that there aren't.
Regardless we are kind of straying away from the original point. T6 is technically rated for motorcycles. That is because they meet the jaso ma standard. This standard states there are no friction modifiers. The lack of friction modifiers is to ensure compatibility with the wet clutch. That's it. By rotellas own website T6 is specifically designed as a diesel oil with formulations and additives specific to diesels. I can't imagine it's as good for a motorcycle engine, clutch and transmission as a dedicated motorcycle engine oil.
In my now pretty extensive research into the subject I really can't see any advantage to t6 other than price while motorcycle oils are, ya know, made for motorcycles....
I'd like to clear this up first.

If an oil contains Friction Modifiers typically it's Moly. In order to be labeled as Energy Conserving (containing Friction Modifiers) it needs a certain amount. The higher amount is what reduces friction and gives better lubrication and mileage, but also what may build-up on clutch plates in cycles and cause slipping.

The bigger issue than Friction Modifiers is the lack of other additives you really want - like ZDDP. Use a motorcycle-specific of diesel oil (like T6 or and Rotella Multigrade) and you have what you need. All standard auto oils are not suitable for cycle use.

T6 is fine, and surpasses many conventional motorcycle-specific oils.

Rotella T6 is not the best, but it's significantly better than adequate and is a safe and solid choice for most motorcycle engines.
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