Kawasaki Ninja 400 Forum - Page 2 - Kawasaki Ninja 300 Forum
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-02-2017, 05:27 PM
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Ultralight bikes need standards as much as 600 and 1000 supersports. You guys just aren't getting that.

I would have been more impressed if they kept it a 300 and improved it enough to make it an R3 and RC390 beater. Sure, for the 400 there's minor improvements here and there, but for the most part, the engineers took the easy way out and "improved" it via a larger engine. It's that stupid American mindset showing up again, more CC's = more better.

As of right now, the ONLY ultralight that takes performance seriously is the RC390. I'm not fond of the rear shock and the engine that tends to blow a head gasket but everything else is better all around. The company to watch out for is KTM. Curious to see what the next version RC390 is like.

Where's the KTM in your list? 324 lbs and 40 rear wheel HP with a light weight trellis frame and USD forks and a good available performance package from KTM. While it fell short in a few areas, it's a good first attempt at an ultralight sport bike.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-02-2017, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaph View Post
Ultralight bikes need standards as much as 600 and 1000 supersports. You guys just aren't getting that.

I would have been more impressed if they kept it a 300 and improved it enough to make it an R3 and RC390 beater. Sure, for the 400 there's minor improvements here and there, but for the most part, the engineers took the easy way out and "improved" it via a larger engine. It's that stupid American mindset showing up again, more CC's = more better.

As of right now, the ONLY ultralight that takes performance seriously is the RC390. I'm not fond of the rear shock and the engine that tends to blow a head gasket but everything else is better all around. The company to watch out for is KTM. Curious to see what the next version RC390 is like.

Where's the KTM in your list? 324 lbs and 40 rear wheel HP with a light weight trellis frame and USD forks and a good available performance package from KTM. While it fell short in a few areas, it's a good first attempt at an ultralight sport bike.
ok sure, I get that, the RC390 has better weight to power ratio than the Ninja 400.
But I don't know if you would call that an engineering achievement. In fact, the RC390 is so well known for engine blow up and people on KTM forums are making a thread about blow up engines now.
That said, I do like the power to weight ratio of RC390.

Also the RC390 is big engine version for American/Canadian market.

It's simply a big engine version of RC125 & RC200 (Asian & European version of RC390) that has identical frame, identical bodywork, identical everything.

Which, I don't personally have a problem with, because I would rather have an RC390 than the original 125cc & 200cc variant.

Back to the point though, I still think the Ninja 400 is an improvement to the Ninja 300.

I think there will always be a demand for big engine especially in North America.

Even overseas, people with RC125 are looking for 180cc big bore kit, and people with RC200 are looking for big bore kit for extra power.
Needless to say, people with RC390 are searching for big bore kit to get that extra "umph"

Same as people with YZF-R25, they want a 300cc kit, but people with R3 are looking for bigger engine too.

Last edited by Timpo; 12-02-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-02-2017, 11:37 PM
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@Timpo please do not understand this as a personal attack but meant as some advice, you should not rely and concentrate too much on the stupid and idiotic marketing but more on technical details then you would better understand what @Zaph wants to say.
I for myself agree 100 % with what @Zaph said.
I guess the kwakis already understand about their mistake with the 300 (compared to the 250) and now try to correct it with the 2018 250 which looks like a real promising bike (engine).
For your better understanding, when an engine is qualified then it's power-output is calculated per 1000 cc and that means:
- Ninja 400 = 113 hp per liter
- Ninja 250 = 157 hp per liter
This is telling us, that the 2018 250 could be compared more to a sports-bike while the 400 is more kind of a grandfathers sunday-tourer.

And here's some about the pricing:

Ninja 400 USD 4,999 USD
Ninja 400 KRT 5,499 USD
Ninja 400 EUR 4,200 (exchange from USD) - real price = 5,995 EUR
Ninja 400 KRT 4,620 (exchange from USD) - real price = 6,195 EUR
Ninja 400 GBP 3,700 (exchange from USD) - real price = 5,249 GBP
Ninja 400 KRT 4,070 (exchange from USD) - real price = 5,399 GBP
Ninja 400 THB 162,800 (exchange from USD) - real price = 196,000 THB
Ninja 400 KRT 179,000 (exchande from USD) - real price = 206,000 THB
It looks like a big promotion in USA, while the other countries look more like ... (what ever we might think about?)
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 12:37 AM
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I can understand the point of making the 300 a better bike but what gains would there be in doing so? Even if they were to make a lightweight sportbike it would not be cost effective with little gain over the current model. A lot of track club racers forfeited the need to purchase a 300 to remain competitive showing that the 250 platform with a built engine would fare just as well. Other than that, the WSS 300 cup is not a spec racing series.

A move towards larger displacement with moderate improvement seems to be a far more solid choice when it comes improving sales and giving a competitive racing platform. SS sales are abominable and it's a disappearing class. Entry level bikes such as the R3 and Ninja 300 are far more popular as well as naked bikes with bumped displacements, fz-07-09, Z800, ER650, and as of this year MotoAmerica will include the Twins class that has open build rules. That really has always been the trend when it came to innovation for the most part. Look at the history with WSBK, starting in the 90's with 750cc inline fours and 1000cc twins, in the 2000's it was upped to 1000cc's and most recently ducati being capped to 1200cc.

I just don't see a lot of compelling reasons for Kawasaki to have considered a "revolutionized" new 250/300.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Yoermane View Post
@Timpo please do not understand this as a personal attack but meant as some advice, you should not rely and concentrate too much on the stupid and idiotic marketing but more on technical details then you would better understand what @Zaph wants to say.
I for myself agree 100 % with what @Zaph said.
I guess the kwakis already understand about their mistake with the 300 (compared to the 250) and now try to correct it with the 2018 250 which looks like a real promising bike (engine).
For your better understanding, when an engine is qualified then it's power-output is calculated per 1000 cc and that means:
- Ninja 400 = 113 hp per liter
- Ninja 250 = 157 hp per liter
This is telling us, that the 2018 250 could be compared more to a sports-bike while the 400 is more kind of a grandfathers sunday-tourer.

And here's some about the pricing:

Ninja 400 USD 4,999 USD
Ninja 400 KRT 5,499 USD
Ninja 400 EUR 4,200 (exchange from USD) - real price = 5,995 EUR
Ninja 400 KRT 4,620 (exchange from USD) - real price = 6,195 EUR
Ninja 400 GBP 3,700 (exchange from USD) - real price = 5,249 GBP
Ninja 400 KRT 4,070 (exchange from USD) - real price = 5,399 GBP
Ninja 400 THB 162,800 (exchange from USD) - real price = 196,000 THB
Ninja 400 KRT 179,000 (exchande from USD) - real price = 206,000 THB
It looks like a big promotion in USA, while the other countries look more like ... (what ever we might think about?)
ok I know what you mean, but I think this topic has been beaten to death on other thread.

Basically, if you want a 250cc or 300cc Inline-4 superbike with proper fork, brakes, swingarms and all the other components, the price will end up close to ZX-6R

Sure, Kawasaki has that technology, but for that PRICE? no way.
Even the Honda CBR250RR (which is still parallel twin) cost something like $8,000 and still single disk brake, parallel twin, etc.

Engineering failure? I don't think so.

They could've added super high compression piston, titanium valves, titanium exhaust, brembo brakes, ohlins suspension and make a 250cc Inline-4 18,000rpm with high horsepower, but it would come with the cost.

Yes, bigger engine and less hp/cc ratio due to low compression engine to accept regular gas and add reliability, save cost, etc.

But in reality, they made it lighter than Ninja 300, with more power & torque WITHOUT raising the price significantly.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 06:22 AM
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What part of bike is engineering fail??

I think it's great, also this bike WILL SELL
especially with its reasonable starting price.
The Ninja 400's competitors are, GSX250R, YZF-R3, RC390 and CBR300R.

Out of these bikes, I know that Ninja 400 has an advantage especially it's lighter and slightly smaller than the Ninja 300.

If it's big and bulky like CBR500R, yeah sure you can call it an engineering fail, but I think this bike is great especially for the price.

and your WSBK argument isn't that valid. I understand what you mean, but the vast majority of customers for Ninja 300 was a beginners/commuters anyways.
People are looking for low priced lightweight bike sportbike just to have fun on the street, not to convert it into a racebike.
+1 I'm ringing my local Kawasaki dealer tomorrow to order one. I'm not a regular Kawasaki buyer either, this looks like a good bike.
But I will let you know Zaph if it's a fail.
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Yoermane View Post
...
This is telling us, that the 2018 250 could be compared more to a sports-bike while the 400 is more kind of a grandfathers sunday-tourer.
Say what?? It's the same bike with different engine internals, that's all.
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-08-2017, 01:29 PM
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there's no 400 forum
There's: http://www.ninja400riders.com/ and Kiwi is the super mod
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Last edited by xorbe; 12-08-2017 at 01:31 PM.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-08-2017, 11:26 PM
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I think Kawasaki's brief to its engineers was to make the bottom end & mid range better while increasing power. If they tried doing that with the 300 CC cap, it would mean an engine that is even more peaky. I very recently saw a video review of the Versys X300(same engine as the Ninja 300) & the reviewer said it reminded of him of old 2 strokes(engine becomes manic at 8K rpm).

The 400 was the only way forward. I think in terms of sales the Ninja 400 will trounce the competition. Most of the potential customers want practicality with performance & the Ninja 400 has that. Bikes like the RC 390 are lacking in the practicality/comfort department. The Ninja 400 will give the best all-round performance. In terms of straight line performance this bike will match, if not beat, the RC 390 & will be more comfortable/refined while doing it(Please note the KTM quotes Dry weight for the RC 390. Fully fueled the weight difference between the two is now just around 2Kg/5lb).

For people like me who looked at the 300 as a long term "hobby", I guess the new 250 is the upgrade(or maybe start saving for the high performance 6r/high value Z900). For people who are looking for their next light sport bike, the Ninja 400 makes a great choice.

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 10:40 PM
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