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Has anyone lifted their rear during hard braking? (ABS)

9K views 27 replies 17 participants last post by  sparkcycle 
#1 · (Edited)
Just curious.

Has anyone on the 300 (ABS) doing track has braked hard enough from high speed and lifted the rear without the ABS kicking in. Is it even possible?

I have gone from 170 down to 80 braking HARD. ABS didn't kick in as wheels wasn't locking and rear hasn't come up.

I guess this is an indication that I could brake harder?

Just wanted to know if the ABS would intervene or leave it be unless it detects locking up.

Want to see whether it be worth just disengaging the ABS module by routing the lines directly from M/C to the calipers.


Thanks for reading.
 
#2 ·
The fact that ABS didn't kick in makes me think you still had some headroom, however if the system works well you shouldn't really be able to feel it. I am sure you can bypass the ABS system by direct routing (I assume the goal is to remove the ABS stuff for weight reduction on the track), but I don't have an ABS bike so I am not entirely sure if there is more at play here.

PS: Nice signature :D
 
#10 ·
You'll definitely feel the ABS kick in. It feels just like it does in a car, you'll feel the brakes "clicking" as the system applies and releases the brake pad.

The bike has an ABS fuse under the seat. I'm thinking disabling it is as easy as pulling the fuse, but I've never actually done it so I could be wrong.

For me personally, I've never felt the ABS kick in at the track. You can break very hard without engaging the ABS as long as you're using proper braking technique. What I have felt is the back side skidding under hard breaking/downshifting. I'm not exactly sure why this is, so if someone with more experience knows what's going on, please chime in.
 
#16 ·
When I had my 300 I did a stoppie in front of my house on stock pads >:)
 
#4 ·
I ran Streets of Willow counter clockwise, so the long straight is downhill heading to the skidpad. I was braking HARD and the rear never lifted. I just got some EBC HH pads for the front so that might make a bit of difference. I'm thinking the guys on here that have done a Brembo master cylinder, an EBC floating rotor, a 4 piston caliper and HH pads have seen a stoppie or two...
 
#5 ·
i have done stoppies on a non abs with braided brake lines and better fluid (just good brand dot4) stock MC and calipers/pads more than once so its more than possible

i have an abs now and havent really tried. also back on rubber lines..
 
#7 ·
If you want to stop fast, you don't use your rear brake at all. (unless you're on a Harley) On my track bikes, the only time I use my rear brake is when I blow a turn and end up rolling on grass.

In regards to the OP, an OEM bike has such weak brakes that it is unlikely you could grab enough handful to lift the rear. And for anyone who weighs more than 120 lbs, the front is going to bottom out, and the sudden lack of travel causes traction to break and the ABS to fire. So in most cases, no an OEM N300 can't lift the rear.

Upgrade the brakes, get the bike properly sprung, and then yes, lifting the rear comes easy.
 
#9 · (Edited)
When you use the front brake the rear end gets light but if you didnt get the ABS to kick in you could pull harder, not that i suggest that

@Zaph

I use both brakes when i really wanna late brake

*delicately* using the rear plants bike and lets you brake even faster and later than only using the front

you can only trail brake so much and the front can only give so much grip to make the turn and brake with

that's just me
 
#13 ·
A lot of the guys with a bigger set than I have at the track can brake hard enough to lighten the rear nearly completely and having any rear brake at that point will just lock the rear as it comes off the ground an inch or two. A lot of the group A riders I knew periodically pick up the rear a bit hard braking for corners at the last moment nearly every corner so they got used to not using much rear brake unless taking a trip across the run off zones. A lot of the newer electronics packages on the new bikes will monitor and prevent this from happening so you can use the rear brake a lot more unless you turn all your aids off.

For street riding though, use both brakes.
 
#17 · (Edited)
There seems to be some confusion as to how ABS actually works. First let me say that there is NO reason at all to disable ABS as it doesn't kick in until it senses the wheel is trying to lock up. ABS works by continuously monitoring the rotation of the wheels once in motion. You notice when you first start the engine the ABS light illuminates in amber color until you start moving, meaning it hasn't initialized as there is no wheel motion yet. Once moving it detects the wheel is spinning and the ABS light changes to green, meaning it has initialized and is working. It does this via a front fork and/or swingarm mounted sensor (most likely optical) at each wheel that reads the motion of the radial slots in the slotted circular disks on each wheel hub as they pass by the sensor head. As soon as the sensor detects one of the slots freezing in motion it immediately incrementally reduces (pulses) braking pressure until it detects the wheel is spinning again. The rider can feel these pulses during extremely hard braking (or slippery conditions) when the wheel is trying to lock up. The whole concept of ABS is that if the wheel ain't locking up ABS doesn't care how freakin' hard you apply the brakes. I imagine this is true even for stoppies but confess I haven't tried any - nor have any desire to at my ripe old age - so you'll have to experiment yourself.

My grandfatherly advice is DON"T disable ABS, especially on the track, as it could save your life!

Ride safe... Happy New Year and Over and Out for now... :wink2::grin2:>:)
 
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#19 ·
My grandfatherly advice is DON"T disable ABS, especially on the track, as it could save your life!
I guess your all over good recommendation, which in many points is really helpful, was meant by good intentions and you don't want to say that the engineering of KTM is clueless, because they give all racers on the racetrack the chance to turn the ABS off.
And one important thing to know is, that ABS is setup with the parameters of the standard suspension, so if one changes to lets say a stiffer setup, the parameters of the ABS are not working anymore like they are setup from factory.
But this my saying is thought as helping advice only, so everybody should do just how he/she thinks.
 
#22 ·
Ninja 300 ABS has been known to trigger BEFORE a wheel slide. Why, I'm not sure. It might be that the ECU has a maximum rate of deceleration before the relay cycles (doesn't necessarily have to be locked up) or it might just be the suspension issue I mentioned. The front bottoms out very easy and that's where the traction loss starts.

In any case, most 300 racers, if their bikes started out with ABS, have removed it and installed a direct stainless steel brake line. Ninja 300 ABS is considered early interference, and the system feels mushy and wooden and is difficult to control with lever pressure. The base model 300 is bad, and the ABS model is worse.

For casual road riding and commuting, the ABS on the 300 is probably a nice safety feature. But track day riders, racers and maybe some canyon carvers will want to get rid of it. Stunters too, though the bike is a poor choice for stunting anyway.

Not all ABS is the same. ABS on supersports is generally higher quality and lower interference.
 
#23 ·
@Jimbo in Thailand - Thank you for your kind wishes which I want to give back to you with your family and at all here, have a happy new year, stay healthy and ride safe.
After @Zaph already talked about what's common to ABS, let me only add the following:
Even when I accept ABS as a safety feature, with the nowadays systems I am against ABS in M/C's.
ABS is NOT a brake (it is not braking), it is only a electronical tool which controls that the brake/wheel is not locked and it is working only with the brake lever fully pulled (full brake application or emergency stop).
Also ABS at M/C is NOT working in corners (curves), so all this talk might give young riders a wrong thinking about not given safety.
Compared to the BMW-Systems the others are not many more than a better marketing-gimmick, sorry to say.
A technical qualified ABS also needs to measure the movement of the suspension, at a m/c i.e. the diving of the fork and lifting the rear end to become more activated in the front and less in the rear (I guess you might be right since the EX300 doesn't have all this?).
Just take some time please and search for this by yourself, I'm sure this will advance your understanding.
There's just too many Marketing-based talk about it, so if one really wants to know more about ABS, please read the Bosch descriptions for a better understanding (since my advice might not be qualified enough).
 
#24 · (Edited)
There are entry level abs systems (ninja 300, rc390), good abs systems (zx6, zx10, 899), great abs systems (bmw), and cornering abs systems (1299, r1m).

Some abs have better sensors than others. Some uses the 6 axis - r1m, 1299, and maybe the rsv4 rf (the rf has some kind of 6 axis sensor but not sure if it does anything to the abs).

Remember the 300 is running on a single disc so the braking will be a lot weaker which may contribute to the weaker feeling of the abs system as well.
 
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